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Ever felt locked out of investing in the companies shaping our future? Florian M Spiegel, Evident's founder, aims to change that. His vision? To make "private markets" a thing of the past. How's that for ambitious?

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In this chat, Florian discusses how Evident, operating from Hong Kong, is democratising access to alternative assets like private equity, using tokenisation and blockchain technology to break down traditional barriers. We explore the inefficiencies of the current system (think paper trails and disconnected platforms!) and how a supportive regulatory environment is enabling this new digital infrastructure.

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Transcript

Florian (00:00)

Our mission in the end is actually quite simple, is to open up these markets so more people can participate and own that piece of the future. Where we see things heading is that in the end, there will be no more private markets. That would mean mission accomplished for us.

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Jonathan Nguyen (00:16)

To another episode of the Unsensible Podcast where we are bullish when everyone else is bearish in the markets at the moment. And we've got someone who is uniquely placed to talk about this situation. Florian Spiegel from Evident. Florian, I'm not going to give you a big giant intro because you're going to give us the 30 second pitch on what you do.

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Florian (00:41)

Of course, it's a pleasure to be here and I'm simply going to talk about what we do and how that changes things and then we can take it from there. I'm Florian. I'm the founder and CEO of Evident. We are a licensed investment platform for alternative assets. The problem we're solving really is access to private markets for private wealth investors. So investors like you and me, we are locked out of investing into the companies that are truly building the future, the ones that are innovating, creating products that change the world for the better. As you said, the ones that we can look at and be optimistic about the future. So these companies are typically funded through so-called private markets and they are called private for a reason because these investment markets are mostly inaccessible. And the main reason for that is outdated paper-based expensive manual processes. And what we do at Evident really is building what we call new digital market infrastructure for these private markets and make it easier to transact and access these alternative assets. Our mission in the end is actually quite simple, is to open up these markets so more people can participate and own that piece of the future. Where we see things heading is that in the end, there will be no more private markets. That would mean mission accomplished for us.

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Jonathan Nguyen (01:57)

There's several layers to what you've just said that are really interesting to me and I'll touch on them progressively. But first one is you guys are only able to do this with some level of ease with regulatory support. You're an Austrian guy grew up in the mountains. That's what I've heard and you're in Hong Kong. How did this all evolve?

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Florian (02:18)

Well, yeah, we'll definitely talk about regulation, but let's start at something easier. I grew up in the Austrian mountains. I just had a wonderful adventurous childhood. We're laughing about it with my family. I always say how we grew up. It was in a form of benign neglect by our parents. They didn't know where we were, what we were doing. And we were just out in nature. I always say I have these scars on my forehead to prove it. But that's freedom. And I think that's one of the core values, but also drivers, behind my entrepreneurial spirit, how I grew up there. And the second thing is, yeah, you just develop also a hunger to go out and to explore. I guess from a personal perspective, that was part of the attraction of Hong Kong, that contrast, that 24-7 high energy, that density of this urban environment is very attractive if you grow up in a very quiet environment. On the professional front, the kind of company we're building, it actually operates on this new piece of technology called blockchain. So back to regulation, the regulatory environment in Hong Kong is very supportive for that. But then also just Hong Kong as a place to build the business just offers a lot of benefits. And in the macro context, Asia is still going to be the place where the growth is going to be. If you look at our target segments, private wealth clients, fastest growing in Asia, that will continue to be the case. So it was a combination of these factors why I'm here in Hong Kong.

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Jonathan Nguyen (03:44)

You mentioned blockchain and obviously on your website, you talk a lot about tokenisation of assets, which we'll get into. But you started out in traditional finance, right?

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Florian (03:55)

Yeah, I did. Well, I actually started out in strategy consulting. I worked at the Boston Consulting Group. I didn't know what I wanted after I graduated. What am I really passionate about? And consulting is a good way of doing many different projects in many different industries and figure it out.

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Jonathan Nguyen (04:03)

Mm.

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Florian (04:11)

And so I was very quickly drawn to financial services, the private markets topic that I'm still working in today. And then I went into asset wealth management, Swiss banking, that really gave me a good understanding of how these industries work, but also how digitalisation will completely change the game. Yeah, this was the foundation to then move over to the entrepreneurial side, which coincided with moving to Hong Kong, starting a FinTech firm. Maybe the combination of that is Evident. And this is a big part of where the energy comes from, the interest in the field. I know that I can build on traditional expertise and in a continuation of the things that matter to me. And as you know as well as I do, you need to have that fundamental interest. I always say passion is maybe overrated or it's a word that's overrated. Interest in a topic, that helps you keep going when things are difficult. And yeah, that's for me. That's how I look at what we do at Evident today.

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Jonathan Nguyen (05:14)

At some point you saw some inefficiency in what was happening in the markets.

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Florian (05:20)

Yeah, so I was definitely scratching my own itch there. After exiting that first company started in Hong Kong, I took six months or so of just thinking, to be honest. And then it became more researching when I identified, this is a topic that's interesting. But it really started with this access question of why is it so hard to do these deals? Which means a lot of people do not have access, they're locked out of that market. Investing in companies, private equity, infrastructure investing, private credit, real estate, commodities. So this world is just not accessible for a lot of people. And if you think about it, if you invest into the world around you, that needs to be part of your portfolio.

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And then the next question is why? So why does this problem exist? What is fundamentally the reason? In our deck, we have a slide somewhere that shows all the process steps on a high level of managing, let's say, a private equity fund from inception all the way to the wind down. There's so many boxes in there, you can't follow it anymore. It's very complicated and complex. So it's the complexity of processes that organically grew over time. Second is the tools that we use. So we use paper documents, PDFs that are being sent around. And most importantly, in the tool context is we use systems that don't speak with each other. So there's no connection of data.

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And the next problem is there's many parties involved in this process. You have your fund admin, a transfer agent, custodian, you have to do accounting, reporting. These are typically disparate parties and all of them have their own systems. So it layers costs, it layers complexity, it slows things down. A common response I heard from, for example, when I did research with asset managers, with family offices, VC firms, you name it. They said, I hear a lot, cannot do that. You know, the transfer says, oh, we cannot do that because, and fund admin says, oh, you can't really do that. And it just limits a lot of what you can do and then what you can offer to your clients. So to me, starting Evident was a classic Elon saying, okay, let's do an exercise of first principles. And in this world, the first principles come from the law. What is the legal and regulatory requirement to facilitate or manage investment into this type of assets? And then think bottom up, how would you build processes on the blank sheet of paper? Forget tradition, forget what people tell you you have to do, forget all these intermediaries that you think you need. How do you comply with the rules and build it from scratch? And this is why it took years to build this.

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So the thinking and the theory behind it, how you keep it legal and regulatory sound, the technology we had to build, we had to build our own technology stack. You get the idea, it takes a long time and then getting licensed, of course. So we're really just now in the market, second half of last year, and then we've seen tremendous growth since, but these are very fundamental change processes we go through. And this is why I said in the beginning, we're building market infrastructure, and that takes time. You have to be patient.

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Jonathan Nguyen (08:27)

And you operate, so you're licensed in Hong Kong, you can have issuers in any jurisdiction. How does all that work? Do they have to be Hong Kong investors, Hong Kong issuers? How does that all tie together?

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Florian (08:38)

So you have two sides. You have the issuers that can be a manager or an owner of an asset, and then you have the investors on the other side. We started out with serving the investors directly, so have more of a B2C model, but it very quickly evolved into us serving other licensed financial services firms that can be a wealth manager. And they want to bring these assets to their clients, because they look good to their clients if they can do that. That can be a bank, that can be a broker. So we have these licensed intermediaries that now work with us, which is where we really have seen the growth, who bring these assets to their clients. So that means these counterparties are licensed in their respective jurisdiction. So we're connecting global to global. The asset can come from anywhere globally and the investors can sit anywhere globally. That's the beauty of an open infrastructure and that connects directly back to the underlying technology blockchain, which is open, globally accessible, if one transfers the data layer. And then the main thing to solve is actually different regulatory concepts in different jurisdictions for what you do. But we get licensed in the main jurisdictions that we operate in, this Hong Kong. But also, we are completing our license setup in Dubai as well. And then other countries we can serve via our partners, who all want to have more alternatives that they can offer to their clients. But they need it efficiently at reasonable cost level. They need a secondary market for their clients for these assets. And they can get that out of the box in a very simple setup from us.

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Jonathan Nguyen (10:10)

What's the most popular asset class that people choose to invest in?

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Florian (10:15)

So we combine having a market view purely internally to be able to source deals ahead of the curve, when everybody wants them, we already have them. We did the structuring, the setup, all these things which require, of course, still some upfront work so that later it can be very efficient. And it takes time to develop the relationships with the owners of these assets, the GPs who may want to sell down a stake in the company in one of their funds. These are very long-term processes and relationships. So we have basically a house view of where things are headed. What are the interesting topics? But then there's also a pull. What does the market ask for? And of course, that's where we go because we are a very commercial company. We go where we can make the money. So combining these two things, and maybe there's a small element, I will admit it, of just personal interest. There's a lot of benefits and one of the benefits is you can decide what matters to you and what's interesting to you as a founder. The combination of that, we have seen most growth actually in private equity, secondary, so direct exposure to single companies, not funds, that investors can pick and say, okay, Elon is going to Mars. I'm going to invest in SpaceX. AI, something I use every day. I'm going to invest into OpenAI, xAI, Anthropic, you name it. I care a lot about certain topics. This is the company I believe in and I want to invest in. So that's what we can offer. And because our machine works so efficiently, it is viable for our intermediary partners to bring this to their clients, even in smaller ticket sizes. Again, just not possible in the past. So that's certainly the vertical that's driving most of our growth over the last quarter or two.

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Jonathan Nguyen (11:51)

You said something previously that I found quite insightful which is, you want to be able to invest in the things that you're interested in. If we're being purely commercial, any finance school professor is going to tell you, put your money into a tracking fund and don't look at it and regularly invest every week, every month and just leave it there. But, you know, if everyone was to do that, I mean, yeah, it's just something you do, but not necessarily something you enjoy. What do you mean by, investing in things you're interested in?

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Florian (12:22)

The right kind of investing makes you a more interesting person. What separates us from machines, which we have to think about now for real, is that we are emotional beings. We, yes, we are homo economicus. So we try to take rational decisions. Yes. But the reality is, we know it deep down, emotions drive a lot of our decisions and they should. That's what makes us humans. That's what makes life worth living. And to me, that translates to finance as well. Yes, of course, you want to put maybe 80% of your money into the obvious things. You never check. It's cold and hard, but that's what you do on the money side. And by the way, start as early as you can. Compounding interest is a thing. That's very powerful. Yes, but it took out a lot of the joy of investing, if you ask me.

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Jonathan Nguyen (13:01)

Yeah.

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Florian (13:09)

It's what I have to do. So what we do is bring back the joy in investing saying, I'm really interested in rocket companies or I want to learn about a certain field. The best way to learn about it is investing in something because you have to think about it. You have to do some research. Maybe you have the opportunity to talk to the founders. So we do that as well. We set up webinars where investors can connect directly to the founders. And that's just part of living an interesting life. So take five, 10% out of your portfolio and say, this is for me. These are the things that interest me. And by the way, of course, private equity outperforms most other asset classes. So it's not like you have to be worried about returns, the contrary. And by the way, it will make your portfolio more resilient because you add diversification to your portfolio. And of course, we don't want anyone to say, take all the money and put it into these private deals. Now, of course, that's still high risk investing. Most of the companies we're dealing in are fairly mature. So the risk of them not working out is of course lower, but it's still higher risk than a lot of other asset classes. But to me, if I'm honest, the main argument and what's driving a lot of our business is this fact of people want to invest in interesting things and then they talk about it with their friends and they learn something. It just enriches your life.

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Jonathan Nguyen (14:23)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably something and this is a question for you, being able to, you know, offer a piece of art as an investment is something you guys can do, right? Why have you chosen to use blockchain as a technology rather than a traditional SQL database, big SaaS type infrastructure? Is it offering you some kind of advantage by putting everything on a public ledger?

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Florian (14:49)

Let me start this way. There used to be a time when tokenization was the leading argument and blockchain was the leading argument, but you nailed it. This is just like saying, like a bank would say to the clients, by the way, we're using MongoDB and SQL databases and the clients would be, okay, thank you. But it doesn't matter to me. It's about what can you do for me? What does it do for me? What are the benefits? So we never lead with the technology argument because, you know, I tell my team, including my engineers, our clients don't care about fancy technology. It needs to work, needs to be reliable. It needs to do the things that enables the benefits that we can bring. But tokenization and the use of blockchain is the right technology that underpins this new market infrastructure. It is the best technology and it will change how financial markets work. If you think about what tokenization is, it's like taking a snapshot of everything that defines an asset, its ownership, its value, the legal rights, and turn that into digital format. This is where you lift all of that out of the paper, out of the files, out of the siloed systems and package it into one container that's called a token. And blockchain is the data layer that allows us to create tokens. So it makes it easier to track, manage, trade. I do a lot of other things with these assets and that is the fundamental mechanism that opens up these opportunities for a wider range of investors.

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So you could also put it this way. We started out when we did this whiteboarding sessions and research very open-minded. We could have used a more centralized database based setup, but we very quickly realized, you need blockchain to be able to provide these benefits. And again, to think about where we are in the industry, this has arrived as a clear insight on an institutional level already.

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The first time I saw proof of that is January 2024, Larry Fink, the CEO of BlackRock on CNBC. They were talking about the Bitcoin ETFs and things like that. And he said, "Okay, the digital assets ETFs, that's just the first step. The real name of the game is the tokenization of all financial assets, a complete revamp of financial markets infrastructure." He said that. I actually still have the LinkedIn post up because when I saw this, I couldn't believe it. And then of course, in March, they launched the now famous BUIDL tokenized fund on Ethereum. So on a public permissionless blockchain, very shocking, I'm sure to all the regulators. You need these watershed moments where big institution is intelligent enough to see where things are headed and says, I'm going to shape that direction. That's what happened. And that made it, that really opened up business for us because then our counterparties, the asset managers, the wealth managers, it was not voodoo anymore. There was much less confusion between what we are doing, which you can call digital securities with the emphasis on securities that are well regulated and understood in traditional financial markets and crypto. These are at least for now separate spheres still. And so that moment changed everything. And this is where I think the topic really arrived as a fundamental new technology that we can use to make these markets better, more accessible, more efficient.

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Jonathan Nguyen (18:10)

And how do you see the relationships with your various counterparties, regulatory bodies? Do they build infrastructure to connect with you guys? Or at some point, does someone still want to print out, you know, chopped and signed? How does that work?

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Florian (18:27)

Let me start with the client side. Yes, it takes time. And when I get the question, what is your biggest hurdle? A lot of our competitors or other players would say, it's regulation. It's also unclear. Totally not. Regulation is very clear. Regulators worked very hard, particularly in Hong Kong, also in Dubai, now also in Europe with MiCA. And we're seeing it happening in the US. I'm very optimistic on that too. Clarity is there, rules are clear, stick to the rules and you have great business. Not a problem anymore. It's an excuse for people who don't spend the time really wanting to understand it or want to go through this hard process. The main challenge for a company like us today is education. It's explaining the things that we discussed. This is still the same answer. This is still a security according to all securities laws. I'm licensed just like you are licensed. In fact, we have the exact same license with a lot of firms, our partners here in Hong Kong. I am just as regulated as you are. This is just a new way of recording and keeping data and updating it and sharing it. So that kind of education is very important, but of course also education on the investor side. If you've never invested into a private company, you need to understand first, what does it entail? How do you take a decision? So this is what we're very focused on, and where we invest a lot of energy in various ways, also in new functionality that we're not yet ready to disclose, but I think it's a very interesting part of the equation.

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The first part of the question, I think it touched more on the technical side. Yes, the beauty of that setup is that we have three pillars. The first one is the structuring and tokenization. We do that for the clients all done in-house. We call that product factory. Product factory is really creating these standardized containers that you can easily move around rather than everything is different every time. This is where a lot of the efficiency is. The most important part of efficiency though is in that second pillar, which is administration and automation of that. A fund admin job is actually very easy to automate because it's rules and mathematics. It's terrible for humans that have to do that work if you ask me. It's ideal for machines. So we spent years automating that part. Our structure is around 80% lower cost than traditional conventional structures. And then the third pillar that I wanted to get to is distribution. So if you have digital representation of that asset, digital processes that are automated, you can allow other platforms to connect to you digitally. So either on an API level, we can integrate with their systems or their systems with us, or even on a blockchain level increasingly. You have also, let's say, blockchain native platforms and players. I mean, it's even better because that's an even tighter, I would say, more efficient integration with one data layer extending even to our partners. And so that will form more global networks or ecosystems where these assets can move around. What we're trying to do is to build capital bridges where capital can flow more efficiently. And so the technical integration part is an important element of that.

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Jonathan Nguyen (21:23)

Most people just want a piece of paper. I don't know if I just asked you. Can I get a printout?

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Florian (21:26)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. You are right. Back to the education part. Yes, we learned that it takes time for people to get comfortable. Familiarity is a powerful thing. You're familiar with something. It's the most inefficient thing in the world. You would still maybe prefer keep doing that. I understand this, that's part of the education job, I would say. So yes, we had to walk back certain things. We said, this is perfect. This is how I would use it. You know, it's all on my phone. I can do everything here. And some people are like, but where's the PDF? Okay, I'll give you a PDF. It's not a problem. So we build a module that creates PDFs. You can have them. It doesn't change anything legally. We did this in many ways from onboarding to investing process to documentation to allow people feel a bit more at home with the hypothesis that that slowly will die off. At some point, no one will open his files anymore.

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Jonathan Nguyen (22:06)

He's a pricks-out.

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Florian (22:23)

Because again, it will become the norm in how we transact, interact with these assets. I think you have to shift that attitude of saying this is just wrong, makes no sense. Why are people doing these markets? These markets are not small. I mean, meme coins are now cratering, but when they were flying high, I was just curious what drives these markets. Why do people do that? It makes no sense to me. Well, there could be other things. There could be things below the surface. For example, community, for example, having a good laugh. That's motivation in markets. And you have to realize as a traditional finance guy.

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Jonathan Nguyen (22:43)

Rampant speculation. True, true, true, true.

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Florian (22:58)

I think it's just, it's always fruitful to engage, try to understand the other side and step out of your own biases. That's how I tried to change. And I think I did my attitude and that allows you to take the good things that you can actually bring back into a regulated environment. And you discuss it with the regulator, say, by the way, we want to do this in this innovative way. And in my head, I know we stole this from the crypto world. And I think this is actually a smart way of doing it. And we can do it in a regulated context. And then we do the work of introducing this innovation in a licensed context. But that's what gives us our edge by constantly innovating.

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Jonathan Nguyen (23:36)

So in Hong Kong, you've got a regulator that even in my observations over the last, even five, six years, their ability to adapt and their curiosity and interest in these types of areas has changed a lot. What's been your observation, actually being at the front lines working with the regulators in this respect?

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Florian (23:57)

Not just that, actually being in the trenches for a little bit. So I had the honor to serve on the FinTech advisory board of the SFC, their securities regulator here, so I've seen for years that story unfold a bit from the inside as well. There's been a tremendous change over the years and being a regulator is a very difficult, very unthankful job. Your main job is to protect investors, but then there is the second thing of allowing innovation. And those are direct conflict potentially, because if things go wrong, everyone will point at you. If you don't allow innovation, everyone in industry will point at you. So it's a difficult job to keep that balance and if things go well and there's innovation and people are safe, no one will say, oh, great job, SFC. This is why I always make a point of saying great job, SFC. They get a lot of criticism, but we forget sometimes this is hard and we have a very good environment in Hong Kong and an open-minded regulator. That really has been our experience as a firm.

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And I feel we're really arriving at a place where, this is now going into broader distribution or we are now working since last week, with two of the global top five wealth management firms, so big banks. And we run the things just like we discussed it in this call. It's now arriving really on institutional level. And again, the fact that you run things in a tokenized setup in a fully regulated way with very strong oversight from regulators, I think that allows us to really participate in these traditional markets. And it's not an excuse anymore to say, regulators are not on top of it or the rules are not there.

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Jonathan Nguyen (25:33)

So it hasn't been easy to get into this point, right? It's taken a while and sometimes, if we talk about the dip, we talk about the challenges of being a founder, what keeps you focused? How do you stay the course when there are so many things stacked against you?

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Florian (25:44)

Yeah. It starts with, I cannot repeat myself, doing something that interests you deeply. And there is a very easy test for that. If there's articles coming or let's say, I read for example, Financial Times, Wall Street Journal, what are the things you navigate to? What were you naturally curious about? And for me, it's that. It's private markets, investing in companies, into the founders that build the future, really driving capital where it makes a positive difference. You need that north star where you say, this is a purpose for me. I did this exercise of saying, what is my personal purpose here? Right? What is my mission as a person? It's very good to take a step back and try to write it down because you think you know maybe, but it's very different when you really have to sort of formulate it for yourself. It makes you think. There's a few things that I've learned in this crazy road here of building companies.

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One thing I always say is start by wasting time. Start by just exploring, let it sit in your brain. Don't necessarily have a plan, I need to figure out this or that by then. That was a rookie mistake I would make automatically. I did my PhD, it's all very structured and you have a plan for everything, that's me. So I needed to teach myself, waste time, just let it sit there, let it come to you. And that helps you find that true north star. That to me is at the core of it.

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Jonathan Nguyen (27:06)

Last two questions.

Okay, first question is, as we're recording this, it's mid-March 2025. The markets, every day I wake up to my Bloomberg and things are red, then they're green, then they're red. Tariffs are on, tariffs are off. My clients are reaking out, get phone calls late at night. It's a moment of uncertainty in the market. How is this impacting you? How is it impacting the private markets in which you spend so much time in?

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Florian (27:38)

Absolutely. First of all, don't look at your Bloomberg or your phone or anything when you get up. Free advice. I'll also learn that the hard way. Have your coffee first, do some reading, whatever. Because it is a time where, yeah, every day things are updating, it's going to be crazy. I think it's a mindset shift you have to go through if you haven't already. Say, this is a period, probably extended period of more volatility because you could say that the world order is shifting and that is a very neutral statement. There would be good things, bad things. As a small company, the way we look at it, there's always opportunity in change. That's number one. Number two, you need to learn to apply the right zoom. If you zoom in on, let's say six months, it's crazy. It's nuts. It's crazy. If you zoom out five years, 10 years, this is a tiny blip. It's saying, okay, it feels insane in the moment, but we have seen this before. This also shall pass. And the picture will become more clear over time. Apply the right zone and say, again, what is my North star? What is my conviction? Where are things headed? What's the direction of travel? That will not go away because of market volatility in the micro. And that's how I lead the company. Part of my job is to create stability for my team and tell them, don't worry about this.

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For a moment you are out of orientation, there's dust everywhere on you, it's in your eyes, you know all these things that happen. It feels like that sometimes. Maybe you're even on the ground because you lost your footing. I do a little exercise when something really bad happens. Like literally I do this, you know, I dust myself off. I'm like okay this happened, this is very bad, let me find my orientation and then always what's my next move?

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Florian (29:22)

How do I step out of this situation? Just the next step, one step. And then what's the next step after that? So even in very volatile times, we can find orientation if we know what the anchor is. And again, that to me is one of the main things a founder and a leader does in a company. You're this stable ship in the rocky waters. And that's just, I think the right way of building company is that you cannot be too distracted by the day to day and know your journey. You're on it and you're going to do it no matter what.

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Jonathan Nguyen (29:50)

Love that. And I'm going to use your analogy for the last question. So you need to know how to adjust your zoom. How do you adjust your zoom and what do you see when you look down that lens barrel 10 years in the future? What does it mean if you succeed in your mission?

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Florian (30:10)

That is a much easier question than predicting. I think it's impossible to predict, but I know what will define success for us. And that is when we can say, there are no more private markets. There are only markets. And we can say there is no more tokenization and blockchain. There are just assets. So the cycle that we've seen for the internet, for example, we also don't say let me order some food on internet protocol v6 or something like that. No, it'll all be in the background, it'll all be known in the markets, no one talks about it anymore. It will be very normal that anyone globally can invest also into these assets that may not yet be publicly listed.

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That is the very simple definition of success and I have very strong conviction that this is where markets are headed. That's how the world will look like in 10 years, at least from an infrastructure level. Then of course, a lot would change because we will have machines, AI, be in those markets as well, probably as smart colleagues, as counterparties. Honestly, I'm optimistic to a fault, sometimes to my own detriment. But I think the world will turn out very positive. We will be able to fall back to be very human again, messy, creative, crazy ideas, just hanging out with each other, talking, and not doing things like filling in Excel cells, or, you know, pick your analogy. That's not what we're built for. So that's the future I see in 10 years because how rapidly everything evolves. I think is not unrealistic, but we all have to work at it. We all have to contribute to make that future happen.

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Jonathan Nguyen (31:42)

I love it. Florian, thank you so much for your time.

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Florian (31:45)

Thank you.

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Jonathan Nguyen (31:45)

Looking forward to coming back to you in a year and saying how you're tracking on that plan to change the world of investing and change how we look at public and private markets. So look forward to speaking to you again soon. See you soon.

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Florian (31:52)

See you soon, all the best.

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